RichI most often do it by hand, then hand toss it, so it has that nice air you see in Vindii's, my bread machine always makes the pizza dough to dense (well like bread) and its cycle is an hour, Vindii will know this also, but I assume you can over knead it as well, I personally only use a rolling pin if I want a cracker like crisp thin crust, something about pushing all the air out of the dough,